Really new guy

Hi Steven Sounds like you're well suited for steamboats. I've been designing my 1st engine, boiler and boat. Slightly controversial but then again I'd find a "normal" steam plant boring. I also restore electronic junk. I've been through quite a few computers, though they mostly needed dusting out. I spent most of my time repairing them more than restoring electronics. My era is the 80's where all things were descrete components around an oversized underpowered IC. Las-*test*-('") thing was a linear tracking LP player. I work as an electronics technician and have a hobby of restoring anything mechanical or electronic. I recon electromechanical stuff is my favorate. I'd prefer to make things out of transistors and relays anyt day. I like making things out of junk, and its amazing what you can use as I'm sure you know. Just because its made out of junk doesn't mean it has to look like junk though. What size boat are you thinking of? Any engine design in mind? Some people say when building a boat you have to displace the water and fill it with money, but I recon most people with the ability to make everything themselvs can make a boat quite cheap. Being close to Scotland I tend to be somewhat tight fisted with money. Best of luck though and I hope you keep posting your progress on here. Simon

Lightning recently knocked out my phone and satellite tv and DRO on my mill and the overhead garage door closer...I dont usually fool with modern electronics but I did manage to fix the phone and the DRO..This modern stuff comes with components that cant be identified by any cross reference books, cant be replaced unless youre in tight with the manufacturer..and I pretty well lost without schematics which cant be had for lot of newer stuff....and then theres surface mount technology- yeuck!!!....Hehhehheh . All these old 3phase lathes and mills with their control transformer and starting relays give me a workout on regular basis..Most every machine I have drug home has required some attention in its control circuits.I tore out the electronics on one old cnc mill and went back in with all new puter and servo drives, variable frequency drive etc..I got an old cnc lathe tore apart now, I fixing it to run off a PC....Knowing a little electonics is fine skill in metalsworking shop.. . No I dont yet know enough about a steam engine to decide what I want to build first other than I plan to build a 15 footer of plywood.- will buy the plans for the boat itself...I figure to make every mistake available so that I get the most education from the experience and then will build bigger, better nicer steamer , next year. . I copied some antique rifles as hobby...Thats finally lost its appeal to me. I then thought I was gonna buy an antique outboard engine and copy it...But then I got this steam engine idea..Good opportunity to do something completely new to me...and I showed couple steam boat pictures to my wife who sorta made the decision for me..

I only have single phase here (thats the problem with living in the middle of nowhere) so I use single to 3-phase inverters. Really handy things, especially as they control the speed as well. With steam engines you find you can get a really really bad engine to work way beyond any petrol engine would have given up regardless of how old it is. The 1st steam engines were comical compared to even the most basic launch engine now. Yet they worked. What is difficult is to get the banace just right. 1st of all, the boiler does the work. The engine simply converts heat and pressure into rotational force. This can all be worked out on a calculator, and the numbers don't lie. Every bit of the steam principle can be calculated to the last point and as long as you make allowances for loss of heat and realise that you're never going to get it just right, you can't go too far wrong. Its all a matter of thinking things out. For instance you want a feed pump to provide enough water to cope with the engines demands in the worst case (going flat out) and a little bit more to cope with all the leaks. The ammount of steam an engine uses can be calculated quite easily by knowing its displacement, the speed it will run at and the volume that a specific ammount of water takes up at a specific pressure. The speed it runs at has been an issue right from the start. Fast, slow, very fast, very slow, whats best? Personally I like 400rpm mark. Its not so fast that its a complete blur but then its not too slow that you don't get the power range. The pitch of the prop with about 25% slip should get you about 1.3/1.4 times hull speed. Hull speed is the maximum speed the hull likes to go at. For 99% of steamboats, they will run at around 1.3 times the hull speed. The idea being the hull will not go faster than the 1/2 wave of wash it makes from the bow to the stern. So in effect, the longer the boat the faster it will go. This is of course a rule of thumb and can be worked round should you want a speed boat or otherwise. The engine power is always the odd one. How much power a boat requires to go a set speed is largely based on the hull speed as long as you have enough power to get to it in the 1st place. All I can say is my dad's 4HP Taylor Compound is a 19' boat and will do about 6.5 knots at best. Throttle it down to 1/2 engine speed and it does about 5.5 knots, so the power has little relevance to the top end speed of the boat. Twice as much power past hull speed will make little difference. The only way to go much faster is to have much more power which I'm sure is not the type of boat you are after. The boiler like I said before is the part which does the work. The best designs have the most heating surface and the water flowing though the pipes the fas-*test*-('"). No point making steam if it can't get to the top. There are very strict regulations which I would highly recomend you stick to. They are different in America to the UK as well. Saftey must be at the top of the list when it comes to steam. 50 gallons of water at 200C (390F) lands on you, you won't feel a thing. Never mind a burn, the force is enough to obliterate almost anything. Stick to the regulations etc and you should have no disasters. Boat hulls can and do come in all shapes and sizes. I've noticed a general trend to steamboats are they are made somewhat stronger than the average sail boat or barge. Must be the 1/2 tonne of metal in the middle of them. You should keep this in mind when building the boat (as I'm sure you would). The traditional boats tend to have 2 large bearers running most of the way along for the boiler and engine to lay on. With a 15' boat the length may be much smaller but the wood tends to stay the same thickness, so you would probably get away without having the equivelant of a girder in the bottom. The three main points of interest though are the boiler mount, engine mount and the thrust block. These three parts will put the most stress on the hull. However unless you are going to fit a huge Uniflow and boiler into a tiny little boat with a large 5-blade prop (you'd have to be a nutter to do that! And even more of one to go out with him) I shouldn't have thought the stresses would be all that much. The great thing about steam is you can do the same thing using 10 different methods. If you were to ask 5 steamboaters a question you'll get 6 different answers, and the perfect boat would have 5 bows and one stern. The levels of complexity are infinate, and you'll have to try and choose one. The simplest also has the ability to be complex so again there is no real answer. One of the more simple ways would be an engine, boiler, exhaust up the funnel and pumps in water from the lake. Going the other end of the scale possible on a launch (which would be my method, but I like to be different) would be a collection of heat exchangers to put back as much heat into both the air and water into the boiler as you can get away with, pumps galore, electronic controlled oil fired auto-start boiler with variable flame size etc etc. Not a system for the faint hearted, but its possible. You just have to remember that anything can be done with steam. To get the ecconomy you must use the Enthalpy it contains, but it does work without. Its all a matter of Physics and maths at the end of the day (Physics is Maths with pictures). And most of it is very simple maths. You can even ignore the maths completely and just go for what feels right. I wouldn't do it myself but I recon I am in the very minority on my idea of a perfect steamboat. I try and think of the steam engine principle as being a system with only 1 limiting factor, and that factor wants to be the controlling factor, like the throttle or valves. Everything else should be large enough to cope with the capacity plus a bit extra. Otherwise you wouldn't be betting the best out of the engine. Steam powered boats all tend to use old technology and old type thining on engineering problems, but I try and think if its better to use modern materials and include some new technology into it (even better if its cheaper) then why not use them? It may not look traditional, but that doesn't bother me. I've made a steam siren out of a explosion proof loud speaker. It looks pig ugly being dicast aluminium painted bright red, but it should work really well.

That boat pictured on top of thepage of this forum--- what can you tell us about it? . Offhand I'd guess that it would be a nuisance to see over the 'hood' on that thing.....but it'd block some overspray..Reckon How long is that boat and what size engine is required to move it along at a good pace?.Is a boat that size trailerable, can it be put in at ordinary boat ramp?..real noob aint I? Hehhehheh . I got some age on me and a lots of wear and tear, I looking to do a few 'bigger' things while I still can..On my possibles list I thinking I might enjoy building a boat and running it 2000 plus miles down the Mississippi or some other long river......and while I not now trying to build a boat capable of comfortably doing long trip like that , it is in back of my mind. . So I wonder about issues like speed/ how many miles can easily be covered in an 8 hour day,, and fuel milage? and will I need to carry lot of extra water for the engine.. . What does a boat have to guage knots? Pounds of steam used per hour?

will I need to carry lot of extra water for the engine.. Unless you are on sea water or really dirty water, you can simply take the water from the river. The mudier it is the more often you should blow down. What does a boat have to guage knots? I've known a comment from a busy body who said he can tell the boat was breaking the speed limit because of how much wash it was making. This is of course utter nonesense. You need a log or GPS for a real measurement, though engine rpm will give you a rough guide. Pounds of steam used per hour? A resaonable engine, say about 6HP may use around 600lb per hour. If you get an SBA register you can look and see what boats use what engine and boiler sizes. Obviously the bigger the better but that isn't always practical. That boat pictured on top of thepage of this forum--- what can you tell us about it? Its called Elpenor. Its got a Website Here. It uses a large uniflow and boiler and the hull is plywood. Its certainly trailerable and appart from needing a larger vehicle to tow it up the steep hill out of the Motorboat Club at Windermere it can be and is towed with a normal family car. Its owned by David Ayres who has built it all. The hull may not be "traditional" but its quite stable and certainly goes well. Its one of the few boats of its size which I can't keep up with on my dads boat. Fuel consumption depends a lot on what you are doing. On the lakes over here you tend to use a lot as you go flat out all the time, but on the canals you may only do 4mph instead of 6 knots, but you use 1/2 the fuel. As for being a N00b, you should get yourself over to the Windermere Steamboat Rally in August. Its usually entertaining with many boats and plenty of rain. There are some pictures in the Rally Reports pages on here of ones I took.

Hello Steven, Although I agree in principle with everything Maltelec has written above I have a couple of observations/comments to make/add: 1) Steam consumption of 600lbs per hour should drive a stonking big engine by the standards of a 15'-20' small steam launch . 200-300 lbs per hour should be adequate, though I agree it's reassuring to have something in reserve ; trouble is "reserve" in this case means a bigger, heavier (more on this later) and therefore more expensive boiler. 2) Hull speed. Roughly speaking the maximum speed a displacement as opposed to a planing hull (with only 1 or 2 exceptions ALL steamboats are and always have been displacement hulls) is equal to the square root of the waterline length X 1.2. This assumes a nice hydrodynamic smooth hull shape and not too much weight. Weight is important as it increases the displacement and means you have to push more water out of the way; so perhaps Maltelec should have written that :of two similar shaped hulls , given the same power to weight ratio, the longer one will be faster or will require less power to reach the same speed. He is absolutely right in writing that the art is in getting the balance of boiler size, engine size, hull and prop right. Inevitably it's a compromize and you only have to look at the approaches different owners/builders have adopted to see that there are are many ways to achieve one's dream. As a newcomer to the hobby I absolutely recommend attending as many steam boat events as you can to see what other people have done . One of the difficulties is that if you ask 3 people what the answer to a particular problem is you'll get 5 different answers (probably all workable !)

Edward I taking next couple months to study books and what I can find of the internet and then will finalize decisions and start building. It will suit me fine,once I begin I doubt I have to ask anybody for help solving a problem of any magnitude. . What happens when the average 15- 25 foot steam boat capsizes? The pictures of boats I am seeing appears that the engine and boiler are proportionally heavy as compared to the bouyancy of the hull materials....So I thinking that if motoring along in high seas or whitecaps and wave crashs over the bow then odds are good that boat will go straight to the bottom ? . 32 years ago I took a 18 foot long 7 foot wide flatbottom aluminum outboard out on river with 3 and 4 foot whitecaps and swells to rescue 4 persons from a capsized catamaran sail boat.....It was 2 men and two very fat women each weighing- I am guessing each weighed more than 300 pounds, possibly lot more than that, real blubbery gals...I got one of the guys into the boat with me and together we struggled to pull the fat gals into the boat..Then with everybody in the boat we headed back across the river, were too heavy, riding too low in the water, weight wasnt distributed right, a big wave come up in front of the boat and boat just plowed right into it. One moment I was sitting down and next moment we were all treading water.....fortunately was by then within 50 yards of shore and all folks made it on in....My boat sank engine down on the Illinois river bottom and bow in the air floating because of foam flotation under the seats. Was not difficult for next boat coming out to hook a rope on it and tow it to shore..... .

< Its called Elpenor. Its got a Website Here. It uses a large uniflow and boiler and the hull is plywood. Its certainly trailerable and appart from needing a larger vehicle to tow it up the steep hill out of the Motorboat Club at Windermere it can be and is towed with a normal family car. Its owned by David Ayres who has built it all. . Maltelec OHHHHHH I like that motor on that boat...That just about exactly what I had sketched out and was looking for drawings of..Purty,purty,purty,purty

I've got several video's of engines on my Youtube account. This is one of them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7ALRmgiW3w If you like Elpenor's engine you should e-mail David and ask him about it.

What happens when the average....steam boat capsizes? Dear Alphawolf45 , I can't speak of steamboats in the USA, but if the average UK steam boat capsizes it sinks. The vast majority of UK steamboating takes place on reasonably sheltered inland waterways and lakes. None of the rivers are particularly deep, I'm guessing but I'd say that 15' would be a deep river though obviously there are deeper places; canals are pretty shallow, you'd be lucky to find 6',3' is more common; lakes and the Scottish lochs are much deeper, Windermere about 120' and I believe parts of Lochness are several hundred feet deep. So in the majority of places salvage/recovery is not a huge problem, in some it would be a nightmare. Personal safety of course is another problem as if incapacitated an adult can drown in only inches , as can a small child even if not incapacitated. So it's sensible to have self inflating life jackets of some sort and cushions filled with buoyant foam. I'm probably stating the obvious in saying that one should be aware of local conditions and weather forecasts and the capabilities of one's boat and never go out if in doubt. Given the conditions in which most UK steam boats operate they are not designed for rough conditions, though most would probably be safe beyond the courage of their crews. It is possible to design in buoyancy, but a steam engine and boiler are heavy . Typically the plant for a 15'-20' boat is going to weigh between 280-800 lbs, so to be on the safe side you need to plan-in between approximately 5-15 cubic feet of buoyancy just for the plant. In an open boat compartmentalization is desirable but can obviously only extend up to a limited extent. So to summarize: most UK steam boats would sink if they capsized; it is possible to design-in buoancy but user common sense in only using your boat within the conditions for which it was designed is PARAMOUNT I must stress that I am neither an engineer nor boat designer, but I believe that what I have written in answer to your question is correct. All the best, Edward

I suspect many boats are like trains, where the major parts are only held in place due to gravity. I know for certan on my dads boat the boiler is located on some pins and nothing else. If the boat was to tip upside down the only thing to prevent it from falling out is the fact that the pipework is attached to the engine, which is firmly bolted down. However I should imagine if you are already in the position where the boiler is falling out of the boat, the boiler would be the least of your worries. I seem to remember Windermere is around 46 meters deep at its deepest point, 214 feet. Wether the rest of the boat would stay afloat if the boiler broke the pipework and sunk would be another question. I don't know of any instances where a steamboat has capsised in recent years. If the weather is too bad on Windermere (it can become very very bad in minutes) we tend to all stay inside and talk nonsense about steam things. I remember being at one end of the lake (10 miles long) and it turned from glorious sunshine to a huge thunderstorm and pitch black within 5 minutes. We saw the wall of cloud comming over the hill. Took us 2 1/2 hours to travel 4 miles back. Couldn't see a thing. Middle of the lake on a boat with a large lump of metal poking through the roof is not the best place to be in a thunder storm.

Can a guy build a steamboat and use it for a season and then sell it and re-coup his invested monies?.. . .Is there good market for a welldone homebuilt steamboat? . Whats the thinking on selling a boat with a home shop built boiler? . Would it be better to sell boat without the boiler to limit sellers liability? . Can you get good money for a boat if boiler is not included?

Can a guy build a steamboat and use it for a season and then sell it and re-coup his invested monies?.. :lol: If you make it as cheap as physically possible, then maybe just about. Thats if you plan on including your time of course. The actual material money you can probably get back, but from a business point of view its a very very small market. I don't think anyone specialises in just steamboats. I think I've mentioned it before, you displace water in the shape of a hull and fill it with money. If you are thinking you want to build a toy in your spare time and simply recover your expenses, I recon that is possible. Though you'll be suprised how long it takes to build it. If you pressed on with it, you could build a simple engine in a week. However I am sure you know as well as I do that the gremlins see you are making good progress and will start to pinch all your tools, break things when your not looking and alter the drawings so the thing you've just made to perfection is the wrong size. .Is there good market for a welldone homebuilt steamboat? - I would say yes deffinetly over in the UK. You tend to find the smaller boats are popular for 1st time boaters and the bigger boats are either built by long-serving steamboaters or bought by people with pots of money. Whats the thinking on selling a boat with a home shop built boiler? - As long as it meets the legal requirements etc, there shouldn't be a problem. The requirements are quite strict over here. You must have a certificate to weld a boiler, and the design must be approved for a start. Cross the t's and dot the i's. Saftey is always 1st with these things. Would it be better to sell boat without the boiler to limit sellers liability? - Pass on this one. At the end of the day, better safe than sorry. But if you don't trust the boiler with someone else, you shouldn't have it on a public river/lake yourself. Can you get good money for a boat if boiler is not included? - Yep. If you see a steamboat complete except for a boiler, all the hard work is done, you just need to aquire a boiler and spend a few days plumbing it in. Its hard to make money with steamboats, though some people are successful. My interest is in the machinery and using them, the money side doesn't appeal to me except for spending as little as possible (which I fail at most of the time). Saying that I'll spend more on a devent valve than saving a few pence on a chinese ten a penny type. What you spend in the short term you often save in the long run. My thought on any construction job, especially a DIY one is do it to the best you can. The quality shows at the end of the day.

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